The Business of Homes Podcast

The Business of Homes Podcast
Episode #004 With Joshua Ellis

Joshua Ellis
I was in group therapy a couple months back and I was processing something out loud with some guys and someone looked at me and they go, Hey, it's okay. If it fails, I'll still love you will still be here. No one's going to leave you. And I think it hit me like a ton of bricks where I was like, Man, so much of this idea is like, I just can't let anybody know that I wasn't who they thought I was.

Michael Conrad
Here. Cheers, brother. Everyone, Welcome back. Michael Conrad here with the Business of Holmes podcast. Today we have a unique and special conversation with my friend Josh here about a subject that is not fun and not easy, but can be incredibly therapeutic to talk about. And that is the failure aspect of the business world. And this is something that we all face and microcosms and microcosms.

Michael Conrad
We face it on a daily basis and some of us, a few lucky of us, we get to face it in a big picture. Part of our story. And I've been an entrepreneur for about ten years and I have had some very identifiable failures and I tend to keep them quiet, as many do, because it's a hardship that not many understand, or at least it doesn't feel like many understand.

Michael Conrad
And so when I started seeing my friend here, Josh Ellis, talk about failure on a big scale that he was going through and all the little unraveling things that come out of that conversation, I knew that this was a story that I was hoping we could talk about. Josh, thanks for being here today.

Joshua Ellis
Glad to be here. It's a good, good way to open it up for sure. I'm excited. Thanks for having me.

Michael Conrad
I know you because we were beginning our careers together in real estate, but neither one of us were satisfied with just staying in one spot. And this idea of venturing out, venturing, really, that risk. Part of venturing was, I think, burning a hole in both of our pockets. And so when you began to sort of have some ups and downs, you know, that was really mirroring a lot of the stuff.

Michael Conrad
Interestingly enough, that I was going through. And so I'm hoping that you can maybe not go back to the beginning, but at least put me somewhere in the middle where we've started off. We change careers, we're doing all sorts of different things. And then there's a bump in the road.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah, I mean, I grew up watching my parents build a company, so I was no stranger to seeing the highs and the lows. And instead of it being something that was exclusive of each other, like you're either winning or you're losing, it was the understanding that they're always happening at the same time, meaning the business has highs and lows.

Joshua Ellis
But I think understanding that that is part of the flow and welcoming it rather than trying to avoid like I'm going to do everything at all costs for things not to go bad. I don't think that's the right approach. I think it's understanding that things are going to go bad as part of the process. And so early on, I got to see that in my father's business, both going from this pinnacle of success moment with multiple dealerships and Franklin to multiple rental properties, seeing like this picture perfect, I guess version of a successful business quickly go bankrupt.

Joshua Ellis
Over the course of about 12 to 18 months, I was working full time in that, so that really opened my eyes to like, Hey, this is not this isn't something that doesn't exist in the process of being entrepreneur. It's actually part of the journey. And I think there was a lot of shame and I guess maybe some guilt when my family was going through that.

Joshua Ellis
And I also understood that, well, that's not healthy either. So I stopped looking at failure as like, man, I have I have to have some some guilt and some shame. What will people think? It's like I'm out here trying and this is part of the story, right? So I think one of the early challenges for me was my family experiencing that because I was going to take that business over there.

Joshua Ellis
I was do not go to college working on the car lot from age 15 to 19, and then all of a sudden that whole thing collapsed. So I think I got a real taste of it early on of of both sides, the high and the low. And I think that allowed me, as I stepped in my own journey, to really understand that, you know, the lows are not necessarily the thing you want to avoid most.

Joshua Ellis
You change on the other side of your most difficult seasons more than you change on the other side of the easiest season, right? So for me, I started embracing it, being like, Man, today I feel like we won. And then the next day I get my teeth busted and I'd have more to say about getting my teeth busted in than I would being able to say, Man, look how we want in our business.

Joshua Ellis
And the other thing I realize is it's people connect during hardship, fear, difficulty, anxiety, because we all speak that language and we all have versions of those emotions in our story. We connect more there than we do sitting around talking about how good we are and how good our business is doing. If I sat here and bragged or had an ego mentality or just maybe those things weren't there, but I just was talking to you about all these great things in my life, there's a chance you might feel lonely in that conversation or just not as connected to me.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah, but if I sit here and I go, you, these are all these insanely challenging things I'm going through in my life right now. Whether that's personally and professionally, you're in me to lean in more so and connect to that and be like, man, I, I just went through that season or I'm in that season too. And so for me, I've decided to like make all versions of the journey, the copilot versus just showing all the successes because I feel like it connects people when I bring them behind the scene.

Michael Conrad
That complexity where it is not one or the other, it's not even sequential, where like, I think that's where you get this impression of sometimes like in the journey of being in business, you're going to have highs, you can have lows. That statement itself has a sequential sort of energy to it where you think, well, it's not a matter of if something bad is going to happen to me.

Michael Conrad
It's a matter of when and maybe you can begin to embrace that. But the even greater complexity that I think we're driving out here is that it is concurrent and that knowing that the journey itself has both high and low moments allows them to coexist. And I mean, look at any part of a business that anyone here listening is part of.

Michael Conrad
You're going to have moments where you're identifiably succeeding and areas where you're continuing to struggle. And the bigger your company gets, which is a measure of some other people success, the more disparate the parts of that business can become and the more chance for wide varieties of micro successes and micro failures to take place. That connection and we've talked on this podcast before about how innovation continues to be just this incredible, difficult taskmaster that requires you all to be always be reinventing the new.

Michael Conrad
But it also is the way out of these low moments and and the learning. I it's so easy for us as humans to identify with those low moments each other. But we just we we just rue the day of revealing that to everyone else. And so, you know, some of the folks listening here might be people that have started in real estate or in business in some capacity and have already butted up against roadblocks.

Michael Conrad
Now, help me tease out this idea of a roadblock versus a failure, because I think sometimes we begin to equate those things. I'm failing, active, I'm failing. No, maybe we're just hitting up against a roadblock versus no, I have actually have some identifiable failure. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just part of it.

Joshua Ellis
Almost looping a roadblock and the sense of failure into just one word. And for me, that word is resistance.

Michael Conrad
To pushback.

Joshua Ellis
Pushback. But I think the gift of it is you get better at understanding when is the resistance not worth resisting? When is it too much? Because sometimes resistance is trying to tell you something like, Hey, this isn't going to be easy, keep going. Other times it's like, All right, you're taking this too far. The ropes about to snap, right?

Joshua Ellis
I think the discernment and the wisdom is kind of really I think the trick and that comes with time. How many times that you took the resistance so far it did snap. And how many times did you let go just before breakthrough. So I, I don't know. Some days I feel like they're all roadblocks, They're all failures. I think it's really what comes from it.

Joshua Ellis
To me, it's just resistance. And I think, you know, I guess failure for somebody, which I hate that word, but I think it's just the language that is most commonly and we can all understand what that means. I don't know. I feel like I haven't ever failed enough to recover from. So it never feels like a dead end.

Joshua Ellis
Like it didn't feel like we've reached that point. A destination. A destination. It's like, Man, we reached this place we've never been before. We've reached this destination. It sucks. Yeah. Where do we go from here? Right. But I think when you were initially asked at this thing in media and come up like, Oh, that's a roadblock, that'd be failure, I'm like, Honestly, it just feels like one lump of resistance.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah. And then really my like I said a moment ago, it's the level of resistance. What type of resistance is this resistance that maybe I'm trying to force something that shouldn't be? What is the resistance telling me? I mean, a lot of times I think you got to go below it and be like, What? When I last was feeling resistance, what did I learn there?

Joshua Ellis
That's okay.

Michael Conrad
So get the white board out. It's like there's an equation here somewhere where failure is the destination or the end result of a certain set of other factors. And if resistance is the constant, we're always under resistance. We're under market pushback. The innovation of new ideas is always going to have difficulty taking root in the marketplace, new ideas we are resistant to.

Michael Conrad
And so resistance is constant. But then there's the other elements that are the variables. So our reaction to it, what you have extracted or learned from it, and then do you stop? Is there is there emotion that continues or is there a stoppage? And this idea of failure, perhaps that's a true ceasing of action or a ceasing of motion that differentiates it from just that general resistance that we're feeling?

Michael Conrad
But again, one man's failure or resistance is another man's motivation. And so if we ourselves are such a big factor in all of this, I would argue that a certain bull headedness or even naivete, which I think is present in all of us, in business and in entrepreneurship, that that is required to just have the cold crank amperage to get out of bed and go do it every day.

Michael Conrad
However, that same thick, thick skull nature, it can really get you in trouble if you push it too far. If you're pushing beyond where that resistance is, is directing you in your path, That's that's been something that I struggle with over the last two years. I acquired a company in first quarter 21, and it was a company that was outside of my comfort zone.

Michael Conrad
It wasn't my natural state of being. It wasn't even a company where at the base level I could do the action. I thought I could overlay experience and business and relationships and sort of bring and draw up this company to like a higher level. I fought the whole way along because it was this incredible resistance to both trying to reshape a company, but also me entering into a landscape that I didn't have a lot of experience in.

Michael Conrad
And this year, first quarter, this year, almost 24 months to the day we decided to dissolve, we'd lost customers, we'd lost staff, we lost resources. And right at the very end, when the handwriting was on the wall, all of my trusted people around me were like, Michael, it's time. It's time to call it. I just I couldn't do it.

Michael Conrad
I couldn't make the final call because that giving in and having the emotion stop was just it was very overwhelming of someone who's been grinding on so many other ways for so long.

Joshua Ellis
Can I ask you a question? Yeah. What was the biggest fear that you believed was going to come by folding up shop? Was there like some shame for yourself or like, guilt or like, judgment from others or like, Man, I just wanted this so bad. Like, what was the thing where you go, if this if I finally give up, I'm going to have to face X probably losing some money is one of them.

Michael Conrad
But certainly that was like distant third in the list.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah, right. Because are human first. So it's like there's a couple other things that are that I feel are going to I'm going to be confronted with. Right. I'm going to lose some money. Yes. But just out of curiosity.

Michael Conrad
Okay, So there's two big things. So this new venture represented legitimacy or perception of legitimacy that I had built a company over ten years and now I was going to move and start yet another company that I was going to have two of them, and it was going to be this sort of like verification that it wasn't just a stroke of luck.

Michael Conrad
The first time around, that it was legitimacy. And then number two, a piece of the puzzle was this was an onramp into a larger sort of set of options for the future, was trying to, you know, lay groundwork for a larger future. And so shutting off this, you know, pathway was shutting off, at least in perception, you know, a piece of the future.

Michael Conrad
And I'm not sure that's even true, but that's what it felt like. And so losing opportunity, losing legitimacy, going back to potentially being a one hit wonder. And who knows if I'll put out another album or get another hit. But you know, that risk of that that social shame and social judgment that I don't know if anybody we were watching or carrying.

Michael Conrad
But yeah, it was the biggest piece of it.

Kyle Monroe
Hey, everyone, it's Kyle, producer for the Business of Homes Podcasts. I hope you have been enjoying today's episode, starting with how failure is part of the journey. Being an entrepreneur, how Joshua feels, Struggle is something that brings us all together and Michael's own journey with failure. When we return after the break, Michael and Joshua talk through Joshua's revelation of how others see him in business.

Kyle Monroe
The importance of your clarity of vision and how your vision might be rooted in something unhealthy. You don't want to miss it. Don't forget to subscribe on your preferred listening platform and make sure to follow us on Instagram as well @thebusinessofhomespod. Do you have any feedback or want to suggest someone for the show?

Kyle Monroe
Email us at thebusinessofhomespodcast@gmail.com. Please enjoy the rest of today's episode with Joshua Ellis. You don't want to miss it.

Joshua Ellis
I've had days, you know, and things that I've worked on where I'm like, This can't. I think anyone would say this, This can't. I'm never going to stop. This can't fail no matter what. Going to go down with the ship, whatever. Right. Everybody will say that probably about the business they're building. Yeah, but I was in group therapy a couple months back and I was processing something out loud with some guys, and someone looked at me and they go, Hey, it's okay.

Joshua Ellis
If if it fails, I'll still love you will still be here. No one's going to leave you. And I think it hit me like a ton of bricks where I was like, Man, so much of this idea is like, I just can't let anybody know that I wasn't who they thought I was. I wasn't able to take this to the finish line.

Joshua Ellis
But also it's like, man, there's they didn't they're not carrying the weight and they don't know all the obstacles. They don't know. Like, they're just going to see the headline of like, Josh Ellis didn't make this work, you know? And what I realize is, like, so much of which can be a healthy side of that is I'm motivated to also do something really well and see it to the finish line.

Joshua Ellis
But I was like, Man, why am I carrying the expectation of like letting people down or them thinking differently? And I was like, Man, that is so interesting to think. That's why I asked that question. It's like the idea of it of dissolving it. What was the scariest part of what did you think you had to confront? And that makes a lot of sense.

Joshua Ellis
And I, I think you're more than a one hit wonder. And I think there's more for sure. Yeah, but I was just curious. I mean, I feel like I would probably feel the same way.

Michael Conrad
It's so interesting when I fall into these stereotypical moments of being the guy that, like candid Mitt defeat or like, doesn't want to be perceived wrong. I'm just like, Oh, just a disgusting stereotype right this moment, I just can't even handle it. Yeah, but you know, you kind of rise above, rise above all of that and try to get back to like what connects us as humans, like what makes us happy, what makes us tick.

Michael Conrad
Yeah. And none of that stuff matters as much. But hearing it firsthand like you did, you know, that's an incredible reminder. That is part of that, I think, larger formula of failure and not failing. And that is when you have that consistency of connection and care. And I think the larger real estate community here in this area, certainly the entrepreneur community, is always at the ready to be a great safety net, but also is not natively one, right?

Michael Conrad
Not natively, natively. We are all just trying to put up the best possible Instagram photo. I mean, that's who we are at our caveman core these days. But if you peel back the layers, maybe have a good glass of whiskey in the hand, like you can really drill down to the things that are really important.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah, You know, it's interesting. When you mentioned real estate, I was like, Man, what you went through with that business is very relatable. There's people that were like, I'm I'm purchasing this flip. They got the funds together, they got the cops. They have, you know, everything's lined up and then the deal just goes south. There's a something that, you know, is based on title.

Joshua Ellis
There's something in the foundation, like the whole thing just now. It's I got to get out of this house, right? They're doing everything they can. They're like, I've that one didn't go according to plan. It's the difference then is did they get out of that and then go find another property and take all that wisdom, right. Saying, hey, I need to do a better due diligence, I need to check on this.

Joshua Ellis
I'm like, You think about it in your situation. Like if you go to analyze a new business to potentially buy, you're totally a different person. Walk into that, right? Yeah. And I think that's just very anyone's listening. That's how to flip, go, go terribly wrong or just not the way you expected, which is probably most people listening to this or been involved in something that financially is like, Man, we saw it to be this and it was so far from that.

Joshua Ellis
But now I've done eight more since then or ten more flips since then. I'm like, same thing to me because flipping a property is like a micro-business, right? You right, you acquire it, you add the value, you exit it, you make some money. I know a business is a little bit more so than just buying and flipping a house, but I think the context of one not working should.

Joshua Ellis
Now there's so much value from that and it's going to take some moment for that feeling. You know, you need some time to let that kind of sting go away. But I promise you, like another opportunity comes. I can actually see you go and I know how to analyze that opportunity now and then. Okay. Yeah. Or let's this might actually be based off what I learned on the last one.

Joshua Ellis
Exactly. My, my second hit. Yeah. What I mean.

Michael Conrad
Well, and that is a great way to think about it. And the flip is probably the ideal analogy because anyone who's watching HGTV and wants to do a flip or anyone who literally flips for a living knows that there is it occupies a single chapter. It is a short bit of time. There is a measurement of success and there's a measurement of time, and you're not going to be in that forever.

Michael Conrad
You're going be able to ride the coattails of that success forever. And so I don't think we are as good as people. I don't think we're as good as real estate professionals. I don't think we're as good as business owners at thinking about it from a more project oriented sort of way, like, Oh, this doesn't define me, this is just my first quarter flip, or this is, you know, I'm going to take what I can get out of this and I'm going to move forward and I'm going to leverage levers, levers.

Michael Conrad
There's a lot of conversation in the investment world about like do a bad flip to learn and break even or even lose money that you can break even on the next so that you can make money in the next. And then like bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep. And so it's obviously way different when you're trying to acquire business that might be a long term fit or starting a business or just getting your feet wet in real estate.

Michael Conrad
And you're like, I was a teacher, I was a lawyer, I was extension worker, and now I am a real estate agent. And so this defines me. Now, this is probably just what you do now, you know, And we all are subject to change.

Joshua Ellis
Well, I'm a strong believer in like, there's so many things when we go on a business, whether it's flipping a house or buying an, you know, scaling a business that you purchases, there's just so much out of our control. And being able to separate the difference between connecting any sense of identity to that I think is super important, like being able to separate yourself from letting that business go and go and like if you were to headline it in your mind, man, I failed at that.

Joshua Ellis
I lost some money and kind of feel happy about it. But I think the reality is like being able to separate and go. There were things that I wasn't able to see. There is people that maybe played a role that led it to this. It's not my my identity is not I can't build a second business. I think that's super important is story and the narrative that we tell ourselves about the thing that didn't work out because there's more than just it wasn't all you.

Joshua Ellis
It may feel like it's you because you're like, Well, I bought it. I had a plan. It didn't work the way I thought. It must be me. But I'm like, but it can't be a part of our identity. Otherwise we'd take that mindset and it's going to pollute everything that we go into. And so I think it's healthy to separate yourself, anybody from a failure, instead of it being so black and white, like, did we win or did we lose?

Joshua Ellis
I'm like, When you're winning, you're going to feel like you're losing some days when you're losing, you're going to have a moment that feels like a win, like it's they exist together.

Michael Conrad
Yeah. What's funny about this is that identity is this really difficult core that we're sort of drilling down this entire subject because the same people that are even willing to launch out and say, I can do that, I can meet that need, I can provide that value, I can fill that hole, those same people view themselves as identity.

Michael Conrad
I can do it. I can meet that need. I can serve that group of the population. And so that those balls of steel required to have the mental self-identity of like, I can do this is also the exact framework that gets you trapped in feeling like your identity is the business. And so it's no surprise that identity and entrepreneurism and like failure are all part of this larger sort of round and round and round conversation.

Michael Conrad
Because what got us here, the tools and the framework to get us to this place where we can even have a potential business is the same one that can trap us. And I've heard it on so many podcasts, I read it in so many books, got advice from trusted mentors. Don't let your identity be caught up in business.

Michael Conrad
It's like, Well, of course it already is. Like don't let it. Like, that's not an action I have control of. We're already there, so.

Joshua Ellis
I can agree with that. And it's it's hard not to, especially when you think about entrepreneurship and some regard it's like somebody has a vision of something in the future and they wake up every day and fight to make it a reality. So when you ask them like, Hey, you should work less, you're like, The visions are fulfilled, right?

Joshua Ellis
It's like, Well, you shouldn't take so much risk. The risk is that won't that get me there faster? Like it? You almost become obsessive.

Michael Conrad
I'm pulling you at the risk lever to achieve the goal. That's a great way to think about it. We only pull the risk levers to either get there faster or to realize the vision at all. We don't do it because it feels fun now.

Joshua Ellis
No, I would say 90% of the time, like I said a little bit ago, as I said this to a buddy the other day, I was like, I feel like Sunday. I'm just tired of fighting. Hills. I got to 90% not distraught and like, as bad as that sound, but like fighting swimming upstream. And then at something I have the 10% of it is like getting hit.

Joshua Ellis
Yeah. Just feeling high for a moment on that win.

Michael Conrad
Yeah.

Joshua Ellis
And that goes away. And of course, you need your next hit. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't think people really understand. That's the seductive nature of entrepreneurship because it's not like, you know, when you're working in a job, there's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of it is project based quarterly based, annual based. You're going to get paid X to do to comply here, right?

Joshua Ellis
And that's fine. But then when you cross that line, a new project is given. Now, like when you're running a business, there's not really there is literally no destination other than the vision you had in your mind.

Michael Conrad
Which are the valleys, of.

Joshua Ellis
Course, 100%. And you might get there and be like, and I feel this somedays I go, This is everything I ever wanted. Yeah, but what I get here, the vision is grown. It's so much bigger. So you go where you think you're going to arrive. Now a lot of times and business is arriving. Is it failed? So it's over?

Joshua Ellis
Or somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, I will buy this vision from you. And you're like, okay, I'll sell. Or you hold on to it. And you have a growing healthy company. But generally, like, well, I think sometimes people forget that, that the entrepreneur had some vision that now has become so impressed in their mind that until it becomes that which is an illusion and of itself.

Joshua Ellis
Right. And I that's why I always go, well, make sure that you're protecting yourself, enjoying it, having fun, like because there's not an arrival. You just keep going. And that's why I'm like, You better, better get ready to have your teeth busted in, because you're going to start on Monday with a lot of inspiration, and by Wednesday you're going to be wondering why the heck you got into it.

Michael Conrad
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I had like in myself sometimes that the grizzled old war veteran who's like blood and, you know, mud all over him, you know, chewing on a stogie kind of thing. Like, I'm just I've, I feel like I've seen a lot in real estate and there's a lot of beat downs to receive along the way.

Michael Conrad
It's an incredibly volatile marketplace. It's a volatile relationship landscape. And at high volume, you know, you can take a few good hits, but that vision, it it is so imperative that we continue to clarify the vision to avoid that ultimate final resting motion of failure. Yeah, we must evolve our vision by seeking clarity. And my my wife reminds me sometimes that I use this phrase a vision of 12.

Michael Conrad
Early on, when I was just a single owner operator, I was like, I have a vision of 12 employees of this perfect, you know, organizational structure, and it's going to achieve this sort of like Zen, like amazingness and my whole life is going to be financially in time. Freedom, you know, it's going to be wonderful. And I think I got to 12 and we were like, Oh yeah, we have like so much further to go.

Michael Conrad
And she's like, What happened? The vision of 12? And so I remind myself that like it evolves over time and is that because we are seeking that never ending sort of fountain of youth or is it that our vision is evolving to a better clarity point that helps us achieve whatever that ultimate goal was, But that I deftly fall into the trappings of the, you know, Ponce de Leon Fountain of Youth, where it's always a little bit of out of reach and there's always a slightly better organizational structure to do or a profit margin hit or whatever it is.

Michael Conrad
And so wrestling with like failure of achieving the original vision or like not being as far as you want can be a difficult sort of little wrestling match.

Joshua Ellis
I have some thoughts, I think knowing where the understanding of where the vision is actually stemming from. So you can have a vision and vision sounds very inspiring and good vision, but what if it is rooted in something that isn't healthy for a long time? I feel like mine was very much rooted in like kind of it, the comparison, the comparison cycle.

Joshua Ellis
I'm like, well, that's how they're building their is. We need more, more employees means that we must be doing something right. More revenue must mean that we're going to be have a higher valuation right? And so I kind of subscribe to this idea of bigger, faster, harder, burn cash at all costs. Just make it big. This is not real estate related.

Joshua Ellis
And, you know, all of a sudden I found myself going, man, I got 17 people that I'm paying and we're losing a bunch of money and I don't like how I feel. Wasn't this the vision? And I was like, Well, I don't want that vision anymore because I don't like how it feels. And what I started doing is shifting the vision away from what I think it needed to look like out here.

Joshua Ellis
And I started going, What do I want it to feel like in here? And for me that was get profitable all feel good when I wake up in the morning, reduce anxiety that all of like building too fast actually has put me in a place where I don't enjoy this anymore. So the new vision became be like healthy and get more peace in my mind, more peace in the body.

Joshua Ellis
Go to sleep thinking less about our problems and thinking more about the opportunity. And so we actually scaled the company backwards, which I was like, Well, that doesn't feel like vision because prior vision was all about bigger and more. And then this season then I just went, there was like vision was about how I wanted to feel and protecting that, and then I could show up and actually enjoy what we are building.

Joshua Ellis
And, you know, we scaled back our profitable and it allowed me to be like, Oh, now, or we're stewarding this business better, we're in a way healthier spot and investors and different people that analyze businesses you're, you know, used to go, okay, you've raised 10 million and you had a $5 million a year. That used to be the exciting thing.

Joshua Ellis
Now it feels like the season is you're building something with profitability and you didn't raise a bunch of money. So not only did I listen to myself and go down that rule, but also the atmosphere, my industry also started looking at the healthier path as more impressive. Yeah, if that makes sense. And so I think to some that up, what I'm trying to say is understanding the root of the vision is very healthy because I think there's a season or sometimes you may subscribe to someone else's vision, act like it's yours only to get there and it looks different.

Michael Conrad
So then in that context, failure is only an inflection point. The failure of that original vision that was not yours is only an inflection point that turns you to a more clear vision of what it should be.

Joshua Ellis
Well, and that vision may have been you and yours.

Michael Conrad
As an over that.

Joshua Ellis
Time in your life. Yeah. With what you knew up to that point, the tools you had. And then a year later you're like, Man, I got my teeth busted in a lot. This year I've changed as a person or the atmosphere of my industry has changed this actually, with what I know today and what we've been through. This now is the new vision.

Joshua Ellis
And so I, I say it could be someone else's, but also might be yours at the time of who you are at that point.

Michael Conrad
Man, I feel like I could go down this very therapeutic journey all day long. Thank you Josh, for spend the time with me and sort of digging at this thing that I think is is more near and dear to all of us than anyone's willing to really sort of discuss. And I hope that anyone listening here will reach out to that network that you already have and help seek out those folks that are helping you achieve clarity and sort of push through those resistance places.

Michael Conrad
Thanks for being here and we will have to have you back on at some point in the future because we didn't even get into all of the other multifaceted parts of you that have made up just an interesting businessman that I've known over these years. So we'll have to do that again in the future. Thanks for today.

Joshua Ellis
Who's going?

Kyle Monroe
Hey, everyone. Kyle, again, producer of the Business of Homes podcast. I hope you enjoyed today's episode too. A huge thank you to Joshua Ellis for being part of our original launch. And don't worry, we'll have another episode featuring him soon. Go follow him on Instagram @moderndayleader and let him know how much you enjoyed his story.

Kyle Monroe
Don't forget to subscribe on your preferred listening platform and make sure to follow us on Instagram as well @thebusinessofhomespod. Do you have any feedback or want to suggest someone for the show? Email us at thebusinessofhomespodcast@gmail.com. Thank you again for listening and we'll see you again soon.